What is NOM? Illuminated Order I have.... can't think what NOM is....

??

J

On Dongle's web site is a killer printing press mod...available for download and use by anyone who wants to use it. His esp file places ( I think ) four of the printing presses into the MW world. A little futzing around with his download and they can be used anywhere. I believe he also has a working lighthouse ( rotating beam ) and guillotine for those who like to get a bit ahead in their modding.

Necessities of Morrowind.... sleeping eating hydrating cooking fatigue effects more beds fires that actually burn you if you stand in them etc. etc.

sry Iudas im not up to date on this thread (last time i checked this thread it was 3 pages long) but are you going to or have you posted the list yet?

If this has already asked im sry. Ive been away for a while and im trynna get up to date.

Ok the bad news is that this thread has passed the 200 thread posting limit, which means that a MOD is going to come along any time now and lock it.
The good news is that I will start another thread on the same topic when that eventuates and the first post will be the current list of THINGS THAT ARE NOT EXACTLY CORRECT in unmodded MW+TRIB+BM as developed from the previous posts in this soon to be DEAD thread.

The list I have is of course not complete. I intend to post what I have gleaned as the starting post for the next thread when this one gets locked.

k thanks

Hey Iudas, why don't you go ahead and post that list now? I'd like to see what we've got so far. I think a lot of folks might not have read this thread, because the title doesn't exactly give a clear idea of what the thread's really about.

Another weird little detail, this one having to do with magic. I am admittedly more of a longsword type of player, but even I have uses for magic. In particular, I am always looking for the Soul Trap and the lock-opening spells. Now, logically, if I went to an apprentice mage, I would expect to find only a few weak spells, like Hearth Heal and some of the damage-on-touch spells. A veteran Battlemage, I would expect to offer all kinds of very high-damage, high-cost ranged spells. I haven't noticed any such logic in the distribution of spells for sale. Furthermore, I think it would make sense for some spells to be available from people outside House Telvanni and the Mages' Guild. Fighters of any stripe would probably like to know the Heal and Heal Companion spells. Thieves should know a few clever tricks besides handling picks and probes--Chameleon spells, at the very least, if not lockpick spells. If it's true that anyone can learn a few spells, even the children that Emma's going to bestow upon us could know a low-level healing spell, for all those bumps, cuts, and scrapes that come with childhood.

About the magic, my own experience is that I end up loaded with hundreds of scrolls of unhinging and srolls of ephyggis gem feeder before I have walked very many cells from Seyda Neen. The default game seeds almost every levelled item list with these at very low levels. But that is scrolls and you are talking about the distribution of actual spells. I will add it to the list.

I was hoping not to have the thread turn toward issues of balance/static equilibrium among the specialities and across the classes and issues of dynamic balance/equilibrium over time in the game. The funny thing is that almost every mod does change the static balance of the game and the dynamic balance over the course of gameplay. I will now have to spend some time coming up with a catchy name for the new thread????

I think your first idea of THINGS THAT ARE NOT EXACTLY CORRECT should work just fine.

Subtitled: "Gaps in Gameplay, Missing NPCs, Questless Objects, and other Mod Opportunities. If that'll fit.

To continue mfelizandy's post, if you ONLY do Ajira's quests in the Mages' Guild, you'll become a Journeyman before her, the big thing that she and Galbedir are betting on. Nor do they ever explain what each wins, etc etc. Also, what the hell is an Apprentice (that's the rank before Journeyman, right?) doing giving quests? Both Apprentices and Journeymen, by definition, are the one DOING quests, not giving them. Also, Ajira has "secrets" for a Warlock? WHAT?! I've never actually become a Warlock (damn mods, distracting me from the actual game ), why in god's name would one get quests from a newly-made Journeyman? And how come she's gotta write reports and such, and all I've gotta do is go and get mushrooms and flowers (which she takes credit for anyway, but you get Advancement for it, too). The Balmora Mages' Guild, I think, needs a lot of work, between Sharn gra-Muzgob, Ajira, and Galbedir.

Also, the members of the Vivec Mages' Guild are the only NPCs in the game, to my knowledge, who have faction quests to do. And none of them do it. Edwinna Elbert seems to have personal quests, but she's a Guild Steward or whatever they're called in the MG.

The extreme strangeness that is the Balmora Mage's guild has been added to the list. Now you understand why the Telvanni think the Mage's guild is a bunch of Imperial amateurs and screw ups. From Trebonius on down tha MG is a few sporks short of a table setting.

An idea for an Ajira upgrade--instead of going out to fetch her mushrooms, the PC escorts her and gains some alchemy points from following her around.

Another Mages' Guild gap--Edwinna says she's interested in the Dwemer, but once you bring her a book and some scrap metal, nothing seems to come of her research. Come to think of it--Dwemer artifacts and the like are supposed to be illegal to trade, but not one of the merchants refuses to buy them. I have never been arrested for trading in Dwemer mugs, armor, weapons--I can march a pack guar loaded down with the stuff right past an entire Imperial garrison, without fear. That's just a little odd. Edwinna should at least be under investigation. The Imperial Legion steward sends an up-and-comer after a single Dwemer tube, but there never seems to be any fallout. The rest of Ald-Ruhn doesn't talk about the breakup of the smuggling ring.

Post the list for us, Iudas.

This post has been edited by mfelizandy: Oct 15 2004, 05:04 AM

The Imperial ban on various items is only very rarely mentioned in the game, and never enforced. It would be nice if it either was, or wasn't mentioned.

As for escorting Ajira around, no thanks. I hate escorting people in Morrowind, they're SO STUPID. Besides, all four mushrooms can be found IN Seyda Neen. The flowers can all be found between Seyda Neen and Balmora. That's just convenient for me, and I wouldn't download a mod that changes that...

Speaking of illegal things--it might add to the realism if one got into trouble for offering skooma or moon sugar for sale. Perhaps, instead of simply refusing to barter, a vendor should call over one of the guards that seem to hang around every shop, and the PC should endure some hassle.

Someone with a flair for scripting might even go so far as to create "drug dogs" for the guards. Upon walking into Balmora with 58 pounds of moon sugar on your back, you might just be unlucky enough to encounter the local drug dog and his handler. (Levitation spells and good sneak skills would become much more important to someone looking to trade in skooma.)

Speaking of criminality--does it bother anyone else that enough money will buy off even a murder charge? Seems to me like some crimes should carry mandatory jail time, no matter how much gold you have to bribe the local officials. Or is that just my mostly-honest play style showing?

The skooma and moonsugar trading is already included, as are the Daedric crescent and will add the dwemer artifact trade items. Drug "sting" ops could be modded fairly easily. Drugsniffing durzogs would be a possibility too. Everything has a price in Vvardenfell even or especially criminal charges. The jail time abstraction that the game uses has bothered many folks and several folks have modded real time jail time into the game. There are issues with real jail time according to some of the threads I have read.

I have the issues with the strangeness of the Balmora Mages Guild already on, will add edwinna.

Will add the lack of topics in most cities when major smuggling rings are broken up. Ald-ruhn, Dagon Fel, the whole bitter coast.

oddly enough, the secrets ajira tells you when you become a warlock aren't bad, really. they aren't quests or duties, and since kitty-cats are so sneaky and nosy, it isn't unreasonable to think that ajiira has learned these things (really they're "leads", they aren't quests) and wants to share them with her really, really good friend: you.

however, yes, the whole race between ajiira and galbedir and the fact that aj-the-apprentice is still giving you quests when you're ahead of her in rank, is ridiculous.

i continue to contend the whole idea that you can become head of ANY faction is totally stupid (except maybe vampire clans, i've yet to play a vampire character). it doesn't fit in with the game (e.g., my telvanni stronghold ain't nothin' compared to any telvanni master's stronghold even if i become grand high muckety-muck), gameplay, or the storyline(s). the imperial cult attitude that the player can't become a priest, but can become a very respected semi-freelance lay servant, is the only thing that makes sense. would any ordinator attack the patriarch of the temple, even if it looked like he was committing a crime? and so on, ad infinitum.

on the same note, though i've not got very far into tribunal, i do think it odd that the only factions to have a base in the capital city of the whole province are the religious ones. even caldera has a mages guildhall. and if it's because it's a dunmer capital, than the great houses should have facilities there, even if the imperial guilds don't.

the idea of atoning for murder with money isn't weird at all, lots of cultures did it. among them, all the norse/vikings, the icelanders, and the franks of gaul with the concept of "wergild": this is from the texbook for a medieval history course i had a couple terms ago: "Every person had a wergild, the price that had to be paid for taking his or her life. This varied according to rank. A noble in the king's service was 'worth' 600 shillings, a free Frankish warrior 200, a Roman 100...The fine for killing a woman of child-bearing age was 600 shillings...700 shillings if she was pregnant...The penalty for rape was 63 shillings." This is from records first appearing in the 6th century, and the concept of wergild remained operative for centuries.

keep murder a property crime!

I have added the "being top dog in every faction" anomaly to the list.
Also added the lack of holidays, celebrations, or any other kind of seasonal marking. ( Reading through the Oblivion forum for a while today especailly the thread about the Daggerfall stuff that was omitted from MW )
Added the singular lack of great house representation in Mournhold the political capitol of Morrowind province.
Noticed that there are very few items relating to Bloodmoon or Tribunal on the list.
Noticed that there are no references to the Official mods so far ( firemoth's issues have been discussed in many older threads.... basically it needs a rewrite.)

It is obvious that the devs have a very good handle on medieval history and practices.

There are ( I think ) 7 or 8 escort the trader/find the trader's stolen good quests that have no linkage. Would a mod that linked these individual mods together, say with a connection to the EEC be a worthwhile undertaking? Likewise three naked nords mini quests that look like they should be linked ( witches and Nords and all that ).

This post has been edited by Iudas: Oct 15 2004, 07:36 AM

There's a damn good reason why there are no other Great Houses in Mournhold - Mournhold is within the city of Almalexia (think the Vatican within Rome), and Almalexia is the capital of House Indoril. House Indoril, being the strongest Great House, would have more than enough influence to keep both the Imperial Guilds (Mages' and Fighters') out, as well as the four competing Great Houses (Telvanni, Hlaalu, Redoran, and Dres). My guess is that part of the deal that keeps those four Houses out also keeps House Indoril out of Mournhold proper (not really a huge sacrifice for them to have to walk through those two big doors in Plaza Brindisi Dorom), since Mournhold is theoretically Temple territory. Because Indoril does have that kind of control in Almalexia, I don't think it unreasonable for them to prevent any permanent embassies from the Houses.

Still, a mod that adds them all would be cool.

And there's no reason why the Morag Tong, the Cammona Tong, or the Theives' Guild wouldn't exist in Mournhold.

Yes!

I'm not sure I'd touch the whole Nord underwear thing, though...

The current list of

THINGS THAT ARE NOT EXACTLY CORRECT
Gaps in Gameplay, Missing NPCs, Questless Objects, and other Mod Opportunities:

Starting with Latest Rumours, Many names are mentioned in latest rumours. Most of those names refer to NPCs who exist in MW+Trib+BM. Several of the referenced names DO NOT Exist.

Nolus Atrius the corrupt Balmora Magistrate
Malur Omayn the imprisoned dissident priest and author
Bilsa Andaram a twice mentioned source of rumours in Gnisis
Narese Athrys rumour monger in Suran
Madayna Sarendas rumour monger Dagon Fel
Baram who woke up in the Temple in Vivec with no knowledge of how he got there.
Alma Rule in Mournhold
Naryn a guard at Fort Moonmoth who likes to wander around in his nightshirt
Old Avus a rumour monger in Balmora.
The ship Renda's Dower which is supposed to be docked sometimes at St. Olm's canalside.
My Tale completely empty dialog topic.

Uriel Septim has a Heir and two minor sons. Geldall and Erman and Ebel
Uriel Septim has two declared heirs Erman and Ebel
There are no house Dres on Vvardenfell .... except for Treras Dres a Telvanni Necromancer and leader of one of the rogue settlements.[ This thread is all his fault ] And Drulene Falen from Tear Redoran Guar breeder/trader.

"A little of this a little of that" Oh surprise you are a thief!! "What I do is my own affair." Oh surprise you're an assassin.

Inwaen a telvanni sharpshooter who had dialog but no presence.
Unwaen a telvanni sharprhooter who has no dialog and is one of the 0 placed characters
The paranoid lady behind the blockaded door in Dagon Fel.
The missing House Hlaalu guar herders.
The dead Hlaalu Noble behind the locked door in the Balmora Morag Tong Hideout.
The many dead adventurers, warriors, thieves, wizards with Vampire faces
The 6 rumours that inform about the rogue Telvanni settlements lead to nothing further.
The Ash Poets. Part of Dagoth Ur's army but...

The MaarGan rumours directing the NPC to help the Bouyant Armigers and the Temple hunt Blight beasts around Maar Gan and GhostGate. No follow up.
Nelos Onmar's love affair, the lady does not respond if you return her stolen jewels.
No topics added to rumours or anywhere else after the PC does indeed clean out smugglers nests or bandit hideouts or creature infestations, no rep improvements, no dispostion improvements.

The complete lack of dialog change at GhostGate and with the Bouyant Armigers after Vivec and the PC decide to go to war inside the GhostFence. No Bouyant Armigers ever patrol the gate or the fence or inside the fence, no harrassing raids, no military deployments.

The milling hordes of Daedric worshippers who have no dialog or any reason for being at those shrines.



Then there are the 31 different people the player is directed to see if the player wishes to know more about A CLASS or a skill. Few of these NPC's have any NPC/specific information to impart to the PC.

An-Deesei should expound on the Monk's life
Bolrin should expound on the Merchant's Trade
Milie Hastien should expound on Clothes and clothiers trade
Scouts talk about geography
Fenas Madach should talk about Thieves trade
Ingokning should expound on the assassins trade
Ian should be the Archer's source
Athel Nerano The rogues life
Llevana Salaren should explain acrobacy
Dumbruk gro-Bolak should expound on Knights and knightly virtues
Albecius Colollius knows BattleMagery inside and out
Mervs Uvayn senior agent
Flaenia Amiulusus on DrillMastery
Angoril is the Senior Master At Arms in knowledge
Snorri on Crusaders
Miles Gloriosus is the Model Warrior
Garothmuk gro-Muzgrub is the smith's smith
Maela Kaushad should explain the Wise Woman's trade
Vala Catraso should explain priestly duties
Gudling the Rascal the hunter's trade
Briring on Barbarianism
Nalion on traders
Tendris Vedran on the apothecary's trade
Galar Rothan should expound on enchanting
Anarenen explains alchemy
Strilian Macro should talk about being a Spellsword
Melvure Rindu should talk about being a witchhunter
Eraamion is the Nightblade expert
Artisia Arelas is the pilgrim with the most miles on her feet ( she truly has access to more dialog topics than any other NPC ) not bad for a level 2 NPC.
Ygfa on healing
Estirdalin is the most talkative Mage
Smokey Morth is supposed to expound on sorcery

No one expounds on the Bard's trade

Meanwhile Witches and warlocks are supposed to explain summonings and Bad Daedra. they don't.
Mabrigash are supposed to do something with the ghost snake. they don't.

There are approx 50, 0 count NPC's never placed ingame ( including the famed Medium armour Master trainer/TelFyr shipmistress.) Some are spelling errors or duplications.

Several of the unique/lore weapons and armours do not have the corresponding enchantments/powers.

Approx 1/3rd of the ingame characters have an alarm rating of 0...

Now for the incongruities, inconsistencies, incompletenesses and illogicalities:

The King is in Mournhold, Mournhold is the political and religious capitol of Morrowind Province. So where are the politicians, the various Great House Reps?
Farmer's do not own their crops.
No Muck fields at the Fields of Kummu
Muck Shovels not needed to harvest muck.
Lore says the trees on MW give resin...no they don't
Lore says the Shalk give Shalk resin for telvanni bug musk .... yes they do.
Lore says Shalk are a domesticated animal on MW ... where are the shalk herds?

Trading in Dwemer Artifacts is never a crime, but it is supposed to be.
Some pre made classes will refuse to deal with you if you are holding; but they are holding themselves in their barterable inventory not the result of a levelled list placement.
The Daedric Crescent is the ONLY forbidden weapon in all of Tamriel. Except if the PC has it no one cares.
Skooma Pipes are not illegal ( Thommy Chong eat your heart out )
Skooma and Moon Sugar possession is not a crime but it is supposed to be.
Intimidation/tauting ( verbal harassment ) is never a crime. ( if it is no instances have been reported )
Given all the money there is on Vvardenfell Bribery is ridiculuously overpowered and the effects never wear off.
Likewise with taunting. and admiration. Intimidation is supposed to wear off and lower dispostion in the long run.
Info Refusals do not occur often nor cause any effect
Service refusals are inconsistent/hypocritical.

No Tresspassing signs do not exist, tresspassing is supposedly a crime too.
Many of the powerful/unique artifacts in the game are not protected or protected only by weak opponents.

Actually the whole crime issue and the way it is abstracted from jail time to what exactly is a crime.

There is a whole issue of cross membership in the two religions and being able to rise to the top rank in both. Likewise cross membership in House Telvanni and the Mage's guild and being able to rise to top rank in both. And no voluntary renunciation is possible. Only expulsion or excomminication for negative acts.
And the generic issue of being able to be topdog in all the guilds, both religions and one great house simultaneously.

Many of the misc quests result in no improvement in dispostion of the quest giver or any island wide improvement in rep ( many do however ).

Tombs are never used by the families. No entombments, no flowers/offering being replaced, no one praying, no Holidays.
http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/calendar.shtml

The distribution of scrolls at low levels, thousands of Ondusi's unhingings and Effyghi's Gem Feeders.
Likewise the distribution of buyable spells at low levels or of appropriate spells for the various specializations.
The issue of NPC-given rewards where the rewards are brain dead and usually too weak or inappropriate for the player's level or class.

The complete unimportance of diseases to gameplay.

Snowy G on the bridge. The one billy goat gruff?

The lack of a tie-together of all the Personal Easter Eggs ( fishy sticks, named ashes, pop je's bone etc.)

The original pack guars not being companion share enabled ( Rollie, Corky, Atheden Girith's Guar) after Trib.
Indeed the whole issue of backporting the Tribunal and Bloodmoon game additions and improvements to originalMW assets.
The MW East Empire Company members do not belong to the East Empire Company faction.

No exquisite gloves
only two small chest types.

There are 36 large families on MW. ( large = 5 named members or more ) Except for the Dren and Dagoth families, helping or harming anyone in a family has 0 effect on the rest of the families attitudes toward the PC. 0 effect on anything at all.

The whole issue of the strangeness that is the Balmora Mage's guild. Ajeera giving the PC quests after the PC outranks her. The necromantic orc.

Missing: TempleMarkers in Sadrith Mora, Vos, Suran, Maar Gan, Holomayan, and Ghostgate Temples
Missing: Imperial cult marker: Vivec foreign quarter canal works Altar
Missing: Jail Marker/evidence chest Vivec Hall of justice or Ministry of Truth.

The whole Ald'ruhn versus Ald-ruhn inconsistency in books, quests, dialogs and even two scripts. Cells are consistently named Ald-ruhn.

Inconsistencies exist in faction memberships. ( Thieves guild on the Dren Plantation staff )

Pool of Forgetfullness, Axe of the Queen of Bats, Anora's Staff, and the whole issue of what is medium armour, what counts as Imperial Legion Armour, what counts as a silver weapon.

Some of the things on this list have had been modded, some are being modded, many have never been touched by the mod community. There is some small and inevitable overlap with this list and the work being done by ThePal with his Unofficial patch. There is no pretence made that this is in any way a complete list of the inconsistencies, omissions, unintentional ambiguities, that make Morrowind and its Expansions and its official mods such a superb game to play and such a superb canvas upon which to repaint a world.

That's quite a list now.

As I said earlier in the thread, I will take a look at some of it.

I'm no good yet with dialogue, so I'll avoid anything that needs new NPCs and dialogue.
From my game experience, I only talk to people when it's quest related, all other time, I ignore them. They tell me nothing of use, which explains why i don't know about all those missing NPCs and those Shalk Herds.
Likewise, I don't read the contents of books (well, very rarely). I've completed the MW main quest at least 3 times now like this.


The key changes I think are lore related, which come's up with a nice mod name of "I am the Lore"

Is owning a Dwemer artifact a crime, or just the trading? There are quite a few NPCs that have full sets of Dwemer armor, and many more have Dwemer weapons. Surely it's only really a crime if you trade with a Dunmer?

Ash Poets? They ring a bell in my mind, but I mustn't have paid much attention to them.

With regards to money, I'm hoping that the combined effects of the Gold Weight fix, and my WIP Trading/Economy fix will reduce the ease of obtaining easy septims/gold.

Which of the unique/powerful weapons need better guards? I've not found all these items, but when I finally do play the game again, I'm going to try to find them all

I think fixing the above will give a more complete sense of completeness.

If someone puts the missing NPCs in, I'll be more then happy to hunt down Nolus Atrius and introduce him to the pointy end of my Glass Claymore.

Thanks Iudas, that's a big list. (Thommy Chong )


Just a little rider on this one, there's a specific mention of the lax enforcement in dialog;

Topic: little advice
Info: Yes, buying and selling Dwarven artifacts without an Imperial charter is illegal. But I've never heard of anyone pinched for it.

I assume the EEC don't like it, but the natives couldn't care less?

Then in certain places certain traders should have an issue with that. Maybe a trader will only buy Dwemer items from you if they have a Disposition of 70 or higher? Granted, Disposition is easy to raise, but at least it's not like someone you've never talked to before is willing to trust you enough to engage in illegal activity with you. Or, even worse, that someone who hates you is gonna put his neck on the line to pay you money? Hah, that's an odd behavior.

So if there are so many traders who are all goody-two-shoes about Moon Sugar (and granted, some of them ought to be), but not Dwemer? That's an inconsistency, too.

But both have been said. I'm just suggesting how things could be changed.

Impressive list Iudas. I hope some enterprising modder comes along and decides to give them a try. Really should get a new topic though, I suspect that no one other than those of us who have been posting are going to be reading 227 posts worth of this stuff, and probably won't see the list.

New Topic started because this one is gonna get locked soon
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16197

Thank you for the compliment, as I was tweaking the list this morning it struck me not how large the list is but how small it is considering all the things that are in MW. And thankyou to all the modders and thinkers and creative people who responded in the thread.

This post has been edited by Iudas: Oct 17 2004, 02:13 AM